Sunscreen: Myths, Misconceptions and What Studies Actually Say With Salt+Blue

Episode Highlights with Salt + Blue

• The fear messaging around the sun and around sunscreen
• Common misconceptions about sunscreen and when it isn’t actually beneficial and can be harmful
• Harmful ingredients found in many sunscreens 
• Chemical vs mineral sunscreen and how these impact the body differently 
• Why our culture has become so afraid of the sun and how we got here
• Questioning the sunscreen prevents skin cancer narrative and what the data actually says
• Why many sunscreens on the market aren’t actually broad spectrum and don’t block the damaging parts of UVA
• What does broad spectrum mean in sunscreen and why to look for this
• Physical sunscreen like zinc are naturally broad spectrum
• What does the term waterproof on sunscreen actually mean
• The problems with petroleum in sunscreen
• Why I don’t wear sunglasses almost ever!

Resources Mentioned

• Salt + Blue
• Dminder app
• Annmarie Gianni 

Hiya
Hiya created a super powered chewable vitamin for kids that packs twelve organic fruits and vegetables plus fifteen essential vitamins and minerals into every dose. Try it at hiyahealth.com/wellnessmama for 50% off your first order.

LMNT
I talk often about the health benefits of salt and electrolytes and I am a big fan of LMNT canned drinks and packets. Go to drinklmnt.com/wellnessmana for a special offer.

Transcript

1047: Sunscreen: Myths, Misconceptions and What Studies Actually Say With Salt + Blue


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Katie: Hello and welcome to the Wellness Mama Podcast. I'm Katie from wellnessmama.com, and I'm here today with two actual real life friends of mine, Kevin and Rachel, to dive into the conversation around sunscreen. Specifically myths, misconceptions, and what the data actually says. And in this episode, we're gonna be diving into the perspective related to the human body and its impact on the human body.
Also stay tuned because in our next episode together we're gonna talk about the environmental impacts. But you've perhaps heard me talk about this before. In general, I am very pro sun exposure in a healthy, moderate way, not pro sunburn, and pro natural light. And of course I'm not pro sunburn. We want to avoid sunburn.
The data's very clear on that. So if we get to kind of have a melded shared perspective on this. We talk about the harmful ingredients in many sunscreens, especially chemical sunscreens and how these can be harmful to the body. What terms to actually look for if you do need sunscreen to show that it's gonna work and that it's going to be safe for the body and what that data actually says on things like sunscreen and skin cancer.
We talk about vitamin D and so much more, and I love that I got to have a conversation with these two people in particular because Kevin is the co-founder and CEO Annmarie Skincare, which is, I loved their skincare for a long time. It's a highly nourishing skincare and I use it often. He's also the founder of a new company called Salt and Blue, which we talk about today is a sunscreen company.
And he's also been a dear friend, but I love the level of attention that they put into their products. And Rachel is the COO of Annmarie Skincare and the co-founder of Salt and Blue. And they put this same level of intention into their products at Salt and Blue, and we get to get really deep into the weeds around sunscreen and safety. So let's jump in.
Kevin and Rachel, welcome. Thanks so much for being here.
Rachel: Thank you.
Katie: I am excited because you guys are in real life friends and it's fun to get to record a conversation and to get to catch up with you. And I love that we're gonna get to dive into a topic that surprisingly I have not ever actually gone that deep on, on this podcast, which is the topic of sunscreen.
And we're gonna do a two part series here. And the first one we're gonna tackle sunscreen and its implications for the human body. And in the second one we're gonna talk about sunscreen and the environment. And I think these are both extremely relevant and there's a lot of misconceptions kind of wrapped up in both of these topics.
So to start off with the human body implications and that side, I would love to just kind of delve into some of these misconceptions and from a high level, like what do most people not understand or get wrong when it comes to the sun and sunscreen?
Rachel: Where to start. So. I can start. I feel like there's been this fear messaging around sunscreen or around the sun in general that's leading us into using so much sunscreen. And the sunscreen that's typically out there are made with chemical filters, which can be extremely harmful, which don't fully block UVA rays.
They're not broad spectrum. They break down. They're causing your body to release heat. There's so many harmful things in them. A lot of them actually contain trace amounts of benzene or can produce benzene, which is a known carcinogenic. So to me there's a lot around the chemical filters that is often missed when people are referring to sunscreen and wearing sunscreen to protect your skin from the sun.
Katie: Yeah, I know we'll get to the environmental implications in round two and that, but that was actually my initial entry into understanding and starting to question conventional sunscreen as someone who is Irish heritage and very fair skinned and in my childhood wore a lot of sunscreen, but when I became a scuba diver and realizing the reef implications actually of a lot of sunscreens and how these were like actually impacting our ocean life because of, like you mentioned, the chemicals.
And I think a lot of people don't realize, like there's almost different categories when it comes to sunscreen and so to me, like calling them all sunscreen is one category is a little bit confusing.
But it almost is confusing to put them in the same category because there's chemical ones that are having a different kind of impact in the way that they filter and block the sunlight versus the mineral based ones that are actually creating like a physical barrier on the skin. So for context, could you guys maybe explain, just so that people kind of understand there's kind of different mechanisms even going on within the category of sunscreen that's helpful to understand.
Rachel: Mm-hmm. I could touch on it, Kev you can too. So the two physical ones are titanium dioxide and zinc, and then the chemical ones, there's a slew of 'em. The first one was created in like the 1930s, but commonly we'll see oxybenzone or octinoxate, avobenzone is one. There's quite a few different common chemical ones that are used as filters in the US and then the two, pretty much the only two physical ones are zinc and titanium dioxide.
Katie: Gotcha. And I feel like also it's worth kind of delving a little bit into kind of the culture around sunlight exposure to begin with. Because I will say like admittedly, I have a bias when it comes to this. I'm very pro sun exposure and pro natural light exposure. And of course, without harming the skin, like I'm definitely not pro sunburn.
So I recognize the need from to protect the skin from sunburn. But it does seem to me like we have kind of given the sun a bad rap unfairly in the last few decades. And that like, I know I've seen statistics of most people are spending less time outdoors than even people in federal penitentiaries who are required to get like outdoor time, like most of us are spending so much time inside and devoid of natural light.
So I'd love to just also bring like that kind of that context and the benefits of natural light into the conversation as well to then be able to build into the nuance of healthy light exposure, harmony with the sun, and not damaging the skin either.
Rachel: I am a hundred percent on the same page. I grew up in Florida and I have a very, I've had a very strange evolution relationship with the sun. I feel like I was out in the sun never wearing sunscreen. My dad put the sticks of zinc on me when I was little. Then as I got older, I heard the fear messaging around, it's gonna age you, it's gonna cause disease, it's gonna do all these things.
And so I was just wearing sunscreen in the mall, like when I was 20 years old I would wear sunscreen all the time. I was obsessed with it because I was so scared of the sun. And then I kind of had a completely, complete shift when I went to Australia and I never wore sunscreen. Even in my midday sun in the middle of the highest point and I would just burn, which is also not healthy.
And I think there's a healthy balance. I think, you know, helio therapy and if you're out there in the morning in the late afternoon and you're getting your UVA during the morning and you're getting your UVB just a little bit and you're not overexposing, I feel like it can be very healthy. And it is healthy.
And I feel like we shouldn't fear the sun. I personally don't wear sunscreen that often, but if I'm going to be out for multiple hours or if I'm going to be out in the middle of the day, I have to, because I don't wanna burn. Kev sorry, I cut you off.
Kevin: Yeah, no problem. I mean, I think Katie, you know, as well as we do in terms of the sun and vitamin D production, it's super important. And there's real science behind that. You know, a fair skinned person like myself being in the sun for 15 to 20 minutes in you know, noon sunlight, can produce about 10 to 20K IU’s of vitamin D.
And that is the amount that I would need, maybe even more than I would need on a daily basis, to keep my levels high. So there is this play of like being in the sun to get that health benefit. But also, you know, we have a farm here in Connecticut and if I'm out on the farm all day long, it's gonna be a problem with sun.
There's this wonderful, and I don't actually, it's actually not wonderful, but there's this photo that came out. It was a, it was an article that came out in, I think it was 2012 of a truck driver who they took a photo of his face and one side of his face is totally sun damaged. The other side isn't because he's, you know, driving in the truck and that's the driver's side affecting his skin. I mean, and that that's real, that that can happen. So there's this really delicate balance between protection and getting the health benefit you need from the sun as well. So.
Rachel: I feel like we've changed as a society as well. We've just gone from this, I mean, Kev, you're living the dream in a farm outside just enjoying it as you can. But I feel like we've become this sedentary society. Moved indoors. So we kind of lost touch with being outside and instead of being outside for long periods and covering up and having this like symbiotic relationship with the sun, it's okay, we're indoors, we need to go outside now and we need to bake. You know, and it's, we're getting overexposed and we wanna burn because we haven't experienced the sun all day. And I think there, that causes harm as well. And not having that balance, you know.
Katie: That's such a great point. And I feel like, Kevin, to your point, like vitamin D, this is, was a thing I always brought up was like there's so much nuance to this conversation. We know for instance, like having adequate vitamin D levels actually reduces your risk of many types of chronic disease and cancer.
So that's important. And we do make vitamin D from the sun. We also know statistically that sunburn does increase your risk of skin cancer at least. So there's like a balance here. And I feel like that balance is often lost probably in many parts of the modern world. But I feel like another part that's not talked about enough is kind of the infrared light component.
And I've heard doctors actually say, we are infrared light deficient in the modern world because we kinda exist under this artificial LED light all the time, and we're not getting exposure to infrared light. And even for people who are really concerned with not getting too much sun exposure, still can make use of sunrise and sunset where UVA, UVB are almost completely gone, like UV is zero, and you're getting red light, you're getting infrared light, you're still getting circadian signaling cues, and I feel like we've lost even those parts in the modern society. They quite literally have thrown the baby out with the bath water. And Kevin, to your point, I'll put a link in the show notes.
There's a cool app I've used called Dminder that lets you kind of calculate based on your skin tone and where you live, your safe amount of sun exposure. And then I think like beyond that, that is where we would wanna be careful. And to me like that is the time and the place for either covering up or sunscreen in a way that's not harming your body or the planet.
I also know from my own research and from like your guys' research for this episode that it's worth calling into question the evidence around does sunscreen alone prevent skin cancer? Because I feel like that's almost taken as gospel in today's world. And to me it actually requires a little bit deeper understanding than just the surface level statement that sunscreen alone prevents skin cancer.
But I would love to hear you guys and your take on that.
Rachel: You wanna go? Want me to go? Yeah, I mean, very subjective, I think. Backing up just a second, if, you know, if we're talking about going in the sun and someone's only option is to use a chemical filter. Yeah. Don't ever use sunscreen because I personally would be very opposed to using chemical filters just based on what they do. I think the primary damage, I mean, what I've read, the primary damage will come from UVA ray, the deeper damage, and the majority of sunscreens on the market don't even cover broad spectrum and UVA, they only get to UVA2possibly, but not even UVA once. They're not even going as deep as zinc, a physical blocker, would. I think the majority of people possibly who are out there for long periods of time should wear a physical blocker or cover up, I don't even know if you should be out in the sun for eight hours in a day, like the high noon, like 10 to 4:00 PM and if you are, you should probably wear a hat and cover up.
So I personally don't think that sunscreen alone would cause it, I think, or prevent it. I think there's a lot of other factors to consider. Just me personally.
Kevin: There's also science that shows that these chemicals can be absorbed into the skin. Now, I'm not gonna go into, you know, speculation as to what they do in the body, but these are not natural chemicals, compounds that are going into your body. And generally, my frame of reference in that, that point is to, to remove as many unnatural compounds from my body as possible.
Zinc, titanium dioxide, does not do that. It stays on the skin. And that is, you know, I prefer that type of protection. And also on top of that, you know, if I'm gonna be out in the sun for a long time, I also am gonna wear a hat. And I'm also gonna wear long sleeves. You know what I mean? Like let's be reasonable here.
You know, it's not, sunscreen's not gonna protect your whole body for the whole day, all the time.
Rachel: And then also those chemical filters, just to touch on that, octinoxate and avobenzone, avobenzone is not even stable. It used to be stabilized with copolymers and a bunch of things, and then octinoxate, it's photo sensitive, so it's just so ironic. It will break down and cause benzene to produce, which is a known carcinogen.
So you have this chemical filter that's being used for, they've pretty much used 'em to get a higher SPF. And what it's doing, being exposed to the sun, it's causing heat and it's breaking down, causing benzene to release, which is a known carcinogen. So it's pretty, just counterproductive all around to use it.
Kevin: Probably a good time now to talk about what SPF really means in terms of protection, like. At 30, SPF 30, blocks about 97% UVB. At 50, it blocks 98%. And at a hundred it blocks 99%. So we're talking, you know, a 2% difference from 30 to 100. So, you know, as you're going and shopping for sunscreens, you're, it’s marketing, it really is. It's not a, it's not a fair model in terms of scale.
Katie: That's so interesting. Yeah. I feel like most people don't understand that and don't even like really know what those numbers even necessarily represent. Like I know I've heard kind of things like, oh, if it's 30 it's, you can stay in the sun 30 times as long as you normally would or different things like that.
But I feel also living in Florida though, I do just certainly see people just like spraying on the chemical sunscreens, and then I get the like downstream, like chemical cloud that comes with that.
Rachel: Awful. It's disgusting.
Katie: Whereas to your point, like the physical barrier ones are using things that are sourced naturally and are basically just creating a version of a coverup. Like so instead of a rash guard, you're wearing a physical sunscreen that's just actually blocking that damage from your skin. It's not creating this like chemical cocktail. Or to your point, like I know some of these chemicals are hormone disruptive and we've seen them in cord blood, we've seen them in little kids' blood, like we know they transfer into the body.
So yes, they might be preventing sunburn, but at what cost? And also to your point with the sunscreen skin cancer conversation is, statistically, we wear more sunscreen, especially chemical sunscreen, than we ever have in human history and spend less time in the sun and our skin cancer rates are still going up.
So to me, that at least like brings up the question of, could something else be going on here that we aren't really addressing in this simplified conversation.
Rachel: For sure. No, and I think it is marketing they’re really just pushing high SPF, high SPF, even though it doesn't really do much. You know, to Kevin's point, just 2% from 30 to a hundred. But when you get higher in SPF and UVB protection, you're lower in UVA, which is where like deep damage is coming from, which is measured by the critical wavelength of the product, which a lot of these chemical sunscreens don't even have a high critical wavelength to cover UVA. So it's interesting.
Kevin: And on the opposite side of that, there was just a consumer group in Australia who studied 20 or tested, retested, 20 different products. And those, 16 of those did not have the SPF that they were advertising. So, and these are, these are like well-known brands that were available in Australia. So, you know, dealing on the other side of it, you know, you might be getting SPF 30 SPF 50, but some of them, one of them had only 4%, sorry, four SPF protection.
So, you know, that's a whole nother game in terms of, you know, what's going on there. But you know, we can only speculate what's happening there, but it's crazy out there.
Katie: And Rachel, you touched on this a little bit, but that other term that I feel like is often used with sunscreen is broad spectrum. And I feel like that one is also like, I don't even feel like I have an understanding completely of what that term means, but it feels like it's important. So can you explain a little bit deeper what does broad spectrum mean and what someone would need to look for in understanding that term?
Rachel: Yeah, so you need to look for broad spectrum. In order for it to be labeled as broad spectrum, you have to have a critical wavelength test done. And that's testing the absorption of the UVA. Instead of the UVB. So UV, so SPF only measures the UVB. And then for critical wavelength, it's measuring the UVA.
So it's kind of covering both. UVB, which is the burning rays and the A, which is the deep damage skin damage, deep aging damage, is the UVA, so you wanna cover both of 'em. And zinc is actually the only one that does a very good job of covering both on its own. It doesn't need anything else. It doesn't need a chemical filter.
It doesn't need titanium dioxide, it doesn't need anything. Zinc on its own covers both, which is great.
Katie: That's really good to know. I feel like there's, like, I didn't understand that at all actually, and I know that term floats around, but that makes a lot of sense now that you explain it. And the other term you see on sunscreen is waterproof and living in an area with a beach I feel like this is something people look for a lot and then kind of assume that if it's waterproof, they don't have to like reapply it because it's waterproof.
I'm guessing that there's probably more to understand here, but what are the myths related to waterproof, sunscreen and reapplication, and when that's actually important.
Rachel: Yeah, I mean, waterproof sunscreen in general. I feel like it's just a term, it's just marketing. It's to get people to buy it pretty much because you still do need to reapply it. What makes something possibly waterproof? I think the FDA is actually doing away with the term waterproof, but to make it waterproof, you need pretty much petroleum, you need copolymers and polymers to be added into the formula to bind, and it's all petroleum based.
So, I mean, seeing that term anyways, I would think that somebody wouldn't want it. But yeah, I don't think that you can get away with just putting sunscreen on at 9:00 AM in the morning and staying at the beach all day and never reapplying. You definitely have to reapply, especially if you're rinsing it off.
Kevin: Yeah, the FDA now only allows water resistant 40 minutes and water resistant 80 minutes. So those are the two that it's allowed, waterproof is going away. They're doing away with that for sure. But I mean, basically 40 or 80 minutes, it tells you when you should reapply. You know, if you're sweating or in the water, 40 minutes is probably best to be honest with you, and I wouldn't wait 80 minutes, but… Even if it says it. But I mean, are we even using those products anyway? That's kind of the, you know.
Katie: Totally fair. Well, and I think the other part of the sunscreen conversation and maybe the reason like whole generations got on board with wearing it daily as part of like even a cosmetic routine is the aging part of the conversation. And Rachel, you talked about this a little bit about like kind of being dogmatic with it when you were in your twenties.
But I would love to go into the deeper nuance around that as well, because I feel like it's maybe not quite so simple as just like the sun automatically ages your skin, that there's actually more to understand in that conversation as well. So can you kind of share from the anti-aging perspective, like the time and the place for sunscreen, especially ones like what you guys have that are physical barriers, but also the deeper understanding of like, is the sun inherently aging to the skin and or what else do we need to understand about that?
Rachel: Hmm. Interesting. Yeah, I think working with a skincare brand, if you're using activated ingredients, if you're using resurfacers or things, you definitely should. And I think it's like when you take a step back, it's like cyclical. You think of if you were just born into the world frolicking in the forest, I don't know how much you would need.
I don't know how much sunscreen you would need. I don't know all the things, but if you're using lactic acid, which is great for aging, you know, antiaging or different resurfacing ingredients, then your skin is going to be more prone to damage and needs protection and it's going to be sensitive to the sun. Also I think in terms of, even if you're not, UVA damage, if you're out there in the middle of the day when it's at its peak and you're not using any form of protection, it's just going to be a little bit more sensitive. It's going to not only burn, but it's going to penetrate. 
And also it depends on your skin type, nationality, your genetics and how you're prone to handling the sun. So I think it's a lot more complex than that and a lot deeper. When I was in my twenties, I just was very vain. I was like, I need to wear sunscreen all the time. I was from Florida, I was used to burning. I literally was going to the mall wearing sunscreen. I was so fair. I would look at photos of myself and I am just stark white because I just wore sunscreen all the time.
I'm like, that is not healthy at all. Like I never even touched the sun, which I think has it’s own issues, you know, to itself. But yeah, I think the aging piece of it, if you are using certain ingredients that are great for aging skin, then yeah, protect your skin. If you are, you know, rotate them. Rotate them on and off so that you don't have to wear sunscreen all the time. But again, if you're gonna be out in the sun for a long period of time during the day or the midday, then yeah, I think using a sunscreen is really helpful. Or using a hat. I mean, in order for UVB in the middle of the day, you just need your arms to the top of your head to get some sunlight. For UVA, you can be out in the morning or in late afternoon in the golden hour.
So like you can choose between the times. You don't have to be out in the middle of the day to get your UVA sun dose. During the middle of the day, UVB sun dose, you don't have to be out too long. So I think there are ways around it.
Kevin: You know, I think going back to that photo of the truck driver, I mean, excessive exposure to sun is going to damage your skin. And so, you know, being vigilant about doing that is really important. And the other two factors to note regarding, you know, skin tone and all that, is latitude, where you're, where you're at in the globe, and then altitude as well. So, you know, as your altitude is important too. I just was with a friend from Colorado and you could just tell he's been out working in his little farm area and he's got sun damage. You know, you can see it pretty clearly, and it's real. So the balance is important.
Rachel: And also, I just wanted to mention, I was reading about this and I think this is something to also factor in, like diet also plays a fact in our sun damage. You know, like what we're consuming, what's oxidizing in our skin, in our bodies. I think that's just something to think about that we don't think about. I think there's so many factors to bring into the conversation that we don't often do.
Katie: Such a great point as well. Go ahead, Kevin.
Kevin: And, Rachel I love it as you kind of point that out because like a lot of these conversations get so pigeonholed into, you know, this is the one way to get the vitamin D or to get the thing. And there's so many other factors of health. I mean like, what's the quality of the air you breathe?
What's the quality of the water you drink? What's the quality of the food you eat? Those are the three most important things, you know what I mean? So like we start with those and then we start to get in, down the rabbit holes and get into the things that we're talking about now.
Katie: Yeah, absolutely. I love that you brought the diet conversation in and I’ll actually link to a blog post I wrote maybe like 15 years ago now, about the idea of eating your sunscreen. Not like quite literally eating a bottle of sunscreen, but the idea that the nutrients we put in our body can protect our skin to some degree.
Not that that would be the only protection that we would use, but to your point, it's a both and. And if we are inflamed already and we're not getting basic nutrients, we're of course more likely to have inflammation exacerbated by sun damage. Whereas if we're like nourishing our body correctly, we are a little bit more resilient. Still not that we need to go damage our skin, but I love that you brought that part in. I'll put some resources for that in the show notes. And also to your point, like I largely err on the side of not sunscreen and I haven't worn sunglasses even in a decade after certain podcast guests explained the circadian signaling from actually getting light on our eyeballs, and if I were, for instance, going to go skiing at high altitude, that would be a time and a place to wear sunglasses, even though I don't typically wear them.
Same thing with, I feel like those are areas to especially consider sunscreen as well. Like if you're skiing in winter, that would to especially be careful about sunscreen because you're likely to air on the side of skin damage and no benefit. From being at altitude in the winter. Like, there's a lot of nuance there.
And I feel like that brings us to the point of, I know we've kind of talked about sunscreen a lot, but you guys have developed a pretty unique and incredible one. So I wanna make sure we actually get to delve into what makes you guys stand apart from a lot of the ones people would encounter in like their drug store or grocery store.
Rachel: Go. Yeah. So our sunscreen salt +  blue, it's not only clean, pure, zinc blocker, high SPF as in 30, high critical wavelength, so it's protecting UVA, but we're also incorporating nourishing herbs. And our seed oil or different seed oils like red raspberry seed oil or sea buckthorn berry oil, different oils that historically have been known to be great for sun care.
I'm watching my words with the FDA right now. But, different oils that have been known to be beneficial or karanja oil, which is great for being in a sun care product. So we're incorporating nutrient rich, nourishing ingredients for sun care as well, and not just the zinc and an oil or butter.
Katie: Kevin, did you wanna add anything or, I don't wanna interrupt if you were going to, or is that covered?
Kevin: That was great.
Katie: Okay. I love that and I'm sure, yeah, we have to like be careful with the wording of that, but I know those things are especially like nutritive to the skin, like they are beneficial. And that's been kind of my thought process with homemade products.
And you guys make basically what I feel like are like these really elevated, even better than homemade products with the intentionality that goes into the ingredients. But the idea of like, in my mind, not only should the things we put on our skin not be harmful, like that should be a bare minimum. And because we know things can pass through the skin, like we also have an opportunity to nourish the body and to benefit the body through what we put on our skin.
And so to me, like that's, you guys really represent that in the things that you create. And I love that you're now extending that into sunscreen. I feel like this brings that word balance into the conversation. In that, if someone's gonna wear sunscreen, certainly I hope we've made a case for avoiding the harmful chemicals that we know cross into our skin and can cause all kinds of issues downstream.
And to choose something that's actually good for your body and nourishing and not harmful at all. And I love that you guys are making that available, and I'll of course link to that in the show notes, but is there anything we didn't touch on related to either the sunscreen or to having like a balanced evidence-based relationship with sunlight, or anything related to this topic that we haven't covered yet?
Rachel: I feel like you covered a lot of the questions. I like that you brought up sunglasses only because I used to really be obsessed with sunglasses. I think I had 20 pairs in my drawer and when I was pregnant, my husband's like, you have to stop wearing sunglasses. Like, I do not want our baby wearing sunglasses.
And I was like, why? They're great. And he really explained to me how our bodies are creating chemicals to signal melanin production and also to thicken our skin and also to disperse the melanin instead of keeping it in us. So it's, when you wear sunglasses, you're tricking your body to thinking that it's dark.
And I know so many people who are in the natural world and like-minded, but they'll wear sunglasses, not like myself included, not even thinking about what it's doing to our brains and our bodies. I mean, aside from the whole circadian rhythm, hormone balance, all of those things, it's tricking our bodies to thinking that it's nighttime and it's not allowing our bodies to create its own natural defenses against the intensity that the sun can have, you know?
Katie: Yeah, I love that you brought that up. And I'll put some, like, further reading links in the show notes about that as well. But yeah, the irony being like if you were gonna wear sunglasses and I was with you, I loved how they looked. I loved them as an accessory, but really if you wanted to support your circadian rhythm, you would only wear them after sunset, which is like, of course not the time people wear sunglasses.
But I love that we got to get deep into the physical body implications of sunscreen. And you guys, if you're listening, stay tuned because now we're gonna get to have a follow-up conversation on the environmental implications, which like I said, was actually my introduction into the potential downfalls of chemical sunscreen anyway.
And so I love that we're gonna get to dive into that as well. But for this episode, Rachel, Kevin, thank you so much for being here. I love that we got to have this conversation.
Kevin: Thanks for having us.
Rachel: Thank you, Katie.
Katie: And thank you for listening and I hope you will join me again on the next episode of the Wellness Mama podcast.